Zakaj pa je časa samo do 16.00?
In res, zakaj se ta zakon tako potihem sprejema?

Medek je zmeden , ker je talec ZDA, EU in svetovne trgovinske organizacije(WTO), uf :(

Resno premišljujem ali ne bi šel z glavo skozi zid.

Referendum naj bi prinesel minimalno eno leto anarhije, ker ne bi bilo nobenega zakona, ki bi urejal divji trg. Ta zakon naj bi prinesel tako stroge zakone, da gojenje GSO sploh ne bi bilo možno(?), a tistih “300″ m je tako, tako. Hitri postopek verjetno zato, da nebi kdo iz EU privlekel koruzo GSO in jo zasadil na polje in potem ne bi bilo zakona za kaznovanje in preganjanje kršiteljev.

Menda referendum o totalni prepovedi GSO sploh ni možen, ker je EU to dovolila in mi pizdeki ne moremo nič. EU je spušila v boju z ZDA.
Vse kar lahko naredimo je, da minister odredi testiranja o škodljivih učinkih GSO in potem na osnovi tega prevemo soobstoj po tem zakonu. Se strinjam, svinjarija. Mi moramo dokazovati škodljive učinke, ker so korporacije dobro plačala znanstvenike, da lažejo za njih.

In ker je Sistem gnil, smo zdaj tu. Ko slovenčki ali sprejmemo ta zakon ali pa ga ne in gremo v totalno bitko z Mordorjem in tvegamo anarhijo.

Jaz sem zmeden, ampak bi šel v tem primeru kar z glavo skozi zid, grrr.

Ena varianta je, da vsebino zakoov in podzakonskih aktov tako zaostriš, da je gojenje GSO ekonomsko nesmiselno.

Še lažje bi bili , če bi bili prepovedani z ustavo :)

No, tko radikalno pa ni treba nastopit… do zdej je bil GSO legalen, torej je GSO že pri nas, gre se le za omejitev oz. prepoved GSO-ja.

“SMS z Dragom Žuro in Darkom Kranjcem je blefirala do včeraj z vetom DS”

Logično!! Zakaj se sploh zanašate? Kako lahko zaupade SMS, stranki “levega” kapitala.

Do 23. ure zbiramo samo še 1.000 podpisov v podporo POBUDI za razpis naknadnega zakonodajnega referenduma o Zakonu o soobstoju gensko spremenjenih rastlin z ostalimi kmetijskimi rastlinami (ZSGSROKR).

NATISNI, ZBERI PODPISE, PRINESI !!!

Dobimo se
- ob 23:00 pri KUD France Prešeren v Ljubljani
http://zemljevid.najdi.si/search_maps.jsp?q=karunova+ulica+14&tab=maps
- in ob 23:30 pred dežurno pošto v Murglah.
http://zemljevid.najdi.si/search_maps.jsp?q=po%C5%A1ta+ljubljana+cesta+81&tab=maps

pa take fore

@t-h-o-r_tebe ocino nekdo dobro placa ali pa si sposoben gledat na stvari le v stilu “fijakerskega konja”!?
Mislim, da bi morali film “Svet, kot ga vidi Monsanto (WORLD ACCORDING TO MONSANTO) vrteti vsaj enkrat na teden, da bi vsak imel priloznost videti in izvedeti!
Podpiram zakonsko ureditev uporabe in gojenja GSO, zal pa se je treba resno vprasati do katere mere se sploh se lahko ubranimo, se pravi izoliramo! V filmu lepo prikazejo primer Mehike in primer koruze_zal je v uporabi ze taka kolicina gensko spremenjenih semen, da so polja z avtohtonimi in “naravnimi” rastlinami resno ogrozena, saj neobhodno prihaja do mesanja enih in drugih (veter prenasa cvetni prah taksne gensko spremenjene koruze), kar je na koncu najnevarnejse, saj iz taksnih mesanic nastajajo dobesedno izrodki in cloveku se bolj nevarne rastline! Se pravi, razmislimo kaj se dogaja tudi preko nasih meja, v drzavah, ki nas obdajajo! Vsekakor upam in mislim, da se je vredno boriti za popolno prepoved uporabe, namrec prenekatere nerazvite drzave, ki so najlazje in najhitreje podlegle korporacijam,kot je Monsanto, ze ugotavljajo in obcutijo skodo in se soocajo z morebitnim dejstvom, da nastale skode ne bodo mogle odpraviti!
Se bolj pa upam, da bo Sloveniji uspelo ( ceprav osebno gojim velike pomisleke) sestaviti zakon, ki bo smiseln in uporaben v praksi, glede na svoje precej negativne izkusnje z zakoni, ki so vcasih ze pravi posmeh vsakemu vsaj napol normalnemu drzavljanu!

Ne razumem vas idotskih zafukancov zajebanih.
Eno je, če dela ena kurčeva pofukulja od firme (na M) take rožice, da jih njihovi pesticidi ne popapajo. To seveda še poveča onesnaženje, poleg tega pa omogoča izsiljevanje.
Drugo bi pa bilo, če bi se ustanovile neprofitne organizacije za povečevanje učinkovitosi in čistosti kmetijstva (recimo v državni lasti, ali pa EU), z uporabo klasičnih in modernih molekularnobioloških metod.
Na žalost se povprečen drek boji, da se bodo te organizmi kr zažrl vsepovsod (magar poleg njegovih možganov - je veliko prostora tam) pa ne vem kaj še vse. V resnici pa z neko kao eko proizvodnjo še bolj pehamo v revščino tisti del sveta, ki si takega preseravanja ne more privoščit.

In before vsi rečete da sem pijan.

Pismu, ma, da bodo vsi veljavni podpisi, drugač smo najebal!

zakaj bi pustili da škodljivici uničijo cele letine in povzročijo množično lakoto, če lahko rastline naredimo odporne proti škodljivcem!

kakšne so dosedanje izkušnje z GSO?
Veliko nekakšnega govora in hipotetiziranja o ukinitvi lakote, pa odpornosti na škodljivce itd. Rezultat pa je danes ODPORNOST NA UČINEK PESTICIDA. Razumete razliko? Rastlino posipaš s pesticidom in ona ga absorbira, vendar ne crkne, crkne pa vse ostalo okrog te rastline, razen nje same. In veste, kaj še? Pri proizvajalcih GSO rastlin se kupujejo semena in pesticidi skupaj, v paketu. Pripravno, ali ne? Veste tudi to, da se uporaba pesticidov pri gojenju GSO zelo povečuje? Verjetno je gojenje GSO edini način, kako povečevati uporabo pesticidov v času, ko vedno več ljudi razmišlja, kako bi jo zmanjšali. Zelo prebrisano.

Zakon, ki so ga sprejeli v DZ, je slab samo zato, ker gojenja GSO preprosto ne PREPOVEDUJE. Določila v njem sicer gojenje zelo omejujejo, kar je bolje kot da sploh ni regulirano. zato bi se moralo referendumsko vprašanje verjetno glasiti “Ali naj bo gojenje GSO v Sloveniji prepovedano?”

Jure… pejt pa popij plutonij če se ti zdi tako neškodljiv al pa pejt v skladišče jedrskih odpadkov in se zapri noter in uživaj v izumih človeškega pohlepa……
Enako kot se lobira za GSO se je lobiralo za jedrsko energijo, pa strupe… in kaj mamo zdej? Rapidno povišanje levkemij, alergij, bolezni…

Jure… Argentina je tista država kjer majo samo sranje z GSO…

@zbik
zakoplji se v strokovne knjige in poišči na netu če te ZARES zanima… jest žal v službi nimam časa tolk velik pisat…
mogoče se kasneje pridružim debati in natančneje razložim…

marjetica:

plutonij != GSO, če mogoče še ne veš. Pa tudi v Krškem nimajo plutonija, če prav vem. In ko mi že tako prijazno “svetuješ”, kako naj se ubijem, da boš imela mir - svetujem še jaz tebi, da pokažeš prst človeškemu pohlepu in se odpoveš računalniku, televiziji, mobitelu, stacionarnemu telefonu, avtu, avtobusom, vlaku, elektriki v hiši, tekoči vodi iz pipe, centralnemu ogrevanju, grajenemu domu, zdravilom, … pa še bi lahko kaj našteval. Seveda vem, da se ne boš - je vse prelahko drugim diktirat, kaj vse ne smejo, sam pa to uporabljat, kot dajat zgled, kajne?

Jedrsko energijo imam pa raje (ja, tudi v kleti bi imel nuklearko, če bi imel dovolj veliko klet - skupaj z odlagališčem) kot sranja od “zelene” energije v obliki vetrnic, sončnih celic, hidroelektrarn, ki zraven tega, da so nezanesljiv vir, ki bo sesul elektroenergetsko omrežje, če jih bo kdaj preveč, še obremenjujejo okolje bolj, kot katerakoli jedrska. Pa prosim, pusti černobil pri miru - če ga omeniš, samo pokažeš, da ti niso znane osnovne razlike med jedrskimi elektrarnami, ki jih gradijo na zahodu in ruskimi improvizacijami, kar je bil černobil.

Kar pa se tiče rakavih obolenj, seveda jih je danes več, kot v kakem srednjem veku - takrat niso imeli pojma, kaj je levkemija in kaj rak. Takrat je pač “umrl mlad naravne smrti”. Samo zato, ker znamo danes diagnosticirat več bolezni, ne pomeni avtomatsko, da jih včasih ni bilo.

Kar se tiče degeneracije življenja, izvoli, naredi, kar sem predlagal in se odpovej VSEMU, kar nam je prinesla in omogočila “zlobna tehnologija”. VSEMU. Pa potem razlagaj, kako kvalitetno živiš, ko boš pri 30ih videt kot 60 letna babica. Če te prej ne bo nesla kaka od bolezni.

@Jure

Jure, ti razpravljaš; nisem tebe mislil, pač pa thora in podobne… Lahko si še enkrat prebereš njihova sporočila…

pa še to: kak vir morda za to, da je bila raziskava o plodnosti narejena šlampasto? Pa naj ne bo ta vir Monsanto.

jure, ne trudi se, tu je tako kot bi planil v grinpisov ali petin hq

nekateri bi pač radi oblekli živalske kože, pograbili kopja in šli živet v džunglo (kao)

@ Jure….. Mehika je ena teh držav, pa Indija…

Kdaj bomo zvedl, če so podpisi veljavni? Mormo se organizirat za 40.000 podpisov!

n - Nič ni jasno. Zaenkrat lahko rečemo, da izvaja POP TV psihološke eksperimente… pobudnik še vedno čaka na uradni odgovor. Menda si to zaslužimo?

Sanja, podpis.

aja, jure, še to:

moje okolje je raziskovalna sfera in naj ti povem, da verjetno ni raziskovalca, ki se bo, ko bo ugotovil, da je njegov predmet raziskovanja tako ali drugače škodljiv, obrnil, odkorakal domov in napisal protestno pismo. Poleg tega, da ne grizeš roke, ki te hrani, razviješ skoraj ljubeč odnos do svojega raziskovalnega “babyja”, pa tudi, če je frankenštajn.

Že samo to, da se dr. Bohancu uporaba pesticidov ne zdi pretirano nevarna reč (”če nekomu neprestano ponavljaš, da je nekaj grozno nevarno - enako kot pri GSO tudi pri pesticidih -, potem se logično ustvari negativno javno mnenje”), me naredi hudo skeptično do njegovih siceršnjih stališč.
Argument, da zavzemanje proti gso krepi multinacionalke, tudi ne prepriča, saj je predstavljen tako, kot da obstaja samo izbira med multinacionalkami in gso.

In na koncu še o korenčku, ki zavira osteoporozo, pa karfijoli, od katere ti izgine pleša: Ko je bila moja mama mlada, je veljalo, da je zelo dobro otrok ne dojiti, saj s kontrolirano formulo za dojenčke izločiš vse nevarnosti, ki prežijo v slabo nadzorovanem materinem mleku. Ali pa, nasveti zdravnikov skozi desetletja, kako naj se dojenčke polaga v zibko, so te otroke obračali kot prašičke na ražnju. Pa so to zelo nedolžni primeri, ko množice sledijo strokovnim argumentom, ki se v drugem obdobju izkažejo za škodljive.

Zato trdim, da je največje zlo v načinu, kako s hrano bogatiti. To napeljuje na vključevanje kemične industrije v predelovalno industrijo, kar je mnogo ceneje kot skrb za kvalitetno gojenje. Namesto iskanja bližnjic in by-passov, kako da bomo prelisičili naravo, bi morali gojiti takšno hrano, ki ne ponižuje njenih konzumentov. To pa je ta hip prav vsa hrana, ki ni gojena ekološko.

Sanja:
Ljudje, ki kolikor toliko zaupamo v inštitucije, pričakujemo, da se bodo opravile vse možne potrebne raziskave, ki bodo razjasnile vsa dejstva o dejanskin in potencialnih učinkih, ki jih utegne imeti prehranjevanje z gso na zdravje ljudi.

In kaj bo za vas dovolj? Koliko raziskav bo moralo bit narejenih, da boste rekli “ok, dovolj”?

Sanja:
Torej praviš, naj se dovoli gojenje gsojev, čeprav vemo, da je bilo preprečeno, da bi se raziskovalo o njihovih učinkih? Ja, pa.. ?!?

Kdo je preprečeval raziskave? Nihče. Verjetno hočeš povedat, da ne zaupaš firmam, ki proizvajajo GSO in hočeš, da dajo denar organizacijam, ki so po tvojem mnenju “neodvisne”, da naredijo te raziskave še enkrat? Noben nobenemu ne preprečuje, da bi šel v trgovino, kupil vrečo GSOjev in jih dal v analizo.

Sanja:
O križancu GSO-NEGSO, ki bo “crknil”. Ne, kmetje, še posebno tisti z ekološkim kmetovanjem, ki jim certifikat ni padel z neba, pač nočejo, da njihove rastline crknejo ob križanju z gso terminatorjem. Težko razumeti?

GSO ni terminator. Je sterilna rastlina. In ja, težko mi je razumet to EKO sranje, ko za velike denarje prodajajo grintava jabolka, za katera se potem še izkaže, da imajo preseženo vrednost kake snovi. Kot se je zgodilo pred kratkim mislim da DMju ali Millerju, ko so morali umaknit “bio” lešnike, če se prav spomnim. Tista oznaka BIO je samo izgovor za nategovanje ljudi.

Sanja:
Zaenkrat vemo le to, da so politiki preprečili raziskave zaradi pritiskov lobijev. In naj potem kar mirno spimo? Saj nas čuva Monsanček.

Kot sem že vprašal, KDO mi lahko prepreči, da kupim vrečo GSOjev in jo stestiram? Nihče. Zdej če pa hočeš kup denarja od države/podjetja, da se boš šel take raziskave pa verjamem, da ti gre v nos, če se politika spunta in te zavrne.

Sanja:
Velike firme kupujejo majhne, razlogi za to niso povezani z dovoljenji za proizvodnjo. Tako je v vseh panogah, tako bo tudi v genski tehnologiji. Razlogi so drugje, v vonju po denarju. Zato imamo vlade, ki jih izvolimo, da bodo delale v interesu ljudi, ne korporacij. Pa na žalost v glavnem ni tako.

Male firme jim pa ne morejo konkurirat. Kaj misliš, zakaj ob internetu in vseh možnih načinih distribucije velike založbe še vedno lagkodno živijo? Zato, ker majhni nimajo šans, da bi jim konkurirali. Enako bo z GSOji. Če bo zakonodaja tako narejena, da mala podjetja ne bodo mogla spravit produkta skozi zaradi omejitev, potem malih podjetji ne bo. Dokler bo zakonodaja preferirala velike korporacije, malih podjetji ne bo.

Sanja:
Argument, da zavzemanje proti gso krepi multinacionalke, tudi ne prepriča, saj je predstavljen tako, kot da obstaja samo izbira med multinacionalkami in gso.

Argument ni v tem, da imamo na izbiro samo GSOje. Argument je v tem, da zaradi omejujoče zakonodaje, ki ti predpiše tako omejevalne pogoje za lansiranje novega GSO produkta, mala podjetja nimajo možnosti prodret na trg in da je edini, ki se lahko “pregloda” skozi zakonodajo, plača teste, spravi zadevo na trg in zasluži multinacionalka. In v takem okolju, kjer lahko preživi samo multinacionalka, mala podjetja ne morejo obstat.

Sanja:
Ko je bila moja mama mlada, je veljalo, da je zelo dobro otrok ne dojiti, saj s kontrolirano formulo za dojenčke izločiš vse nevarnosti, ki prežijo v slabo nadzorovanem materinem mleku. Ali pa, nasveti zdravnikov skozi desetletja, kako naj se dojenčke polaga v zibko, so te otroke obračali kot prašičke na ražnju. Pa so to zelo nedolžni primeri, ko množice sledijo strokovnim argumentom, ki se v drugem obdobju izkažejo za škodljive.

Danes imamo tudi “strokovne nasvete”, da otrok ni treba več cepit proti boleznim, ki so nekoč kosile med otroci. Argument je pa “saj že dolgo ni nihče umrl, cepiva so pa tako strašno nevarna”. Pozabljajo pa, da so smrtnost ustavili prav s tem cepivom. Škodljivi “strokovni” argumenti so na obeh straneh.

Sanja:
Zato trdim, da je največje zlo v načinu, kako s hrano bogatiti. To napeljuje na vključevanje kemične industrije v predelovalno industrijo, kar je mnogo ceneje kot skrb za kvalitetno gojenje. Namesto iskanja bližnjic in by-passov, kako da bomo prelisičili naravo, bi morali gojiti takšno hrano, ki ne ponižuje njenih konzumentov. To pa je ta hip prav vsa hrana, ki ni gojena ekološko.
No, ko boš imela način, kako ekološko prehranit skoraj sedem milijard ljudi, le na dan s predlogom. Prav te bljižnjice in bypassi, kot ti imenuješ tehnologijo, omogočajo enemu kmetu, da prehrani mesto ljudi, ki imajo tako čas se ukvarjat z drugimi stvarmi - recimo razvit računalnik, na katerem sedaj bereš to sporočilo, razvit mobitel, po katerem klepetaš s prijateljicami, ne pa da od jutranje zarje do sončnega zahoda delaš na njivi, da bi tvoja družina lahko preživela zimo. In ni daleč nazaj čas, ko so ljudje po naših krajih umirali zaradi lakote. Da smo to premagali, pa gre zahvala samo in le tehnologiji - pa če jo še tako ne maraš. Mislim, da današnji svet prav kliče po kmetiji izpred 50, 100 let, na katero bi poslal vse, ki so prepričani, da bi prav lahko preživeli brez sodobnega kmetijstva. Po moje bi vas celodnevna košnja, obračanje, grabljenje in spravljanje sena, ki mu dela družbo vsakodnevna skrb za živino, sledi pa okopavanje krompirja, žetje pšenice in tako naprej skozi celo leto kmalu prepričala, da se na tak način pač ne da prehranit celega sveta. Vsaj ne če hočemo imet čas še za kaj drugega.

sanja, desperado:

Jaz nisem predstavnik Zavoda MIR, tako da treba verjetno na uradne odzive z njihove strani še počakati, a kot vedo povedati stari očetje, za vsako rit šiba raste :)

Hvala vsem za podpise, spet smo v pravni godlji, imenovani ZRLI… = past za naivne demos-krateine, ker te lahko oni od zgoraj na vsakem koraku poonegavijo, pa ti tega še opazil(a) ne boš, če za predolgo mežikneš.

In še lep pozdrav vsem monstantovim plačancem, ki si trdo služijo svoj vsakdanji bio-eco-croissant.

…dr. Bohanc…Večje avtoritete od njega na tem področju pri nas ni….študentje, ki si zavoljo lastnega napredovanja v višji letnik ne drznejo omenjati zadržkov do gso-jev, saj je profesor znan kot hud preganjalec tovrstnih zadržkarjev na fakulteti…

Očitno si je tale dr. Bohanc avtoriteto zagotovil tako, da je v kali zatrl vse argumente, ki se ne skladajo z njegovim prepričanjem. Kako Janševsko in nedemokratično…

Uvajanje GSO lakoto povečuje in ne zmanjšuje. Ker so GSO semena dražja, potrebno jih je kupovati vsako leto, potrebno je kupovati ustrezne drage pesticide… Dokazi so v Mehiki, Paragvaju, Argentini, Indiji…

Zamisel o proti škodljivcem odpornih GSO-jih je propadla. Ni se obnesla ne pri koruzi, ne pri soji, ne pri bombažu.

Zaradi odpornosti GSO proti zelo strupenemu pesticidu (običajno Roundup), se je poraba le tega povečala preko vseh mej. Ni več potrebno paziti na ustrezno količino. Presežek strupa konča na krožnikih končnih konzumentov in v podtalnici, posledično v pitni vodi iz vodovoda.

Monsanto je patentiral GSO in tako uvaja neetično, moralno sporno zakonodajo avtorskih pravic na področje, kjer tega nikoli ni bilo. Na podlagi teh patentov toži in uničuje konkurenco. Končni cilj je monopol nad določenimi vrstami hrane.

Enega samega razloga ni za to, da bi bili GSO v Evropi potrebni. Kar nekaj pa je razlogov za nekaj-desetletni moratorij na GSO.

Nanašajoč se na enega zgornjih komentarjev, kako kmetje v Argentini profitirajo na račun GSO: enostavno ni res. Kajti lastnik tisočih hektarjev divje izsekanega pragozda(saj vemo kakšne so posledice takšnega početja) zasajenega s sojo je Monsanto.

bodi:
gre za nepredvidljive učinke gso v daljšem časovnem obdobju !

Zato se bomo odpovedali tehnologiji, ki ima ogromen potencial? Res pametna poteza. Odpovejmo se še mobitelom, ti tudi niso še raziskani na “daljše časovno obdobje”, karkoli že to je - sam sumim, da je to številka, k iustreza trenutni situaciji - , vraga, dajmo prepovedat vse brezžične povezave, za vsak slučaj. Prav NOBENEGA dokaza ni, da so GSOji kakorkoli škodljivi - pa so z nami že precej let.

bodi:
podobno cepivom, kot si omenil, le da si obrnil zadevo.

Nič nisem obrnil. So včasih na veliko umirali za boleznimi, proti katerim se cepimo? So. Je danes še kaka smrt zaradi teh bolezni? Kjer se cepijo, redkokatera. Je cepljenje boljše kot ne cepljenje? Definitivno. Razen če ti “saj danes skoraj ni več primerov” predstavlja vrhunec argumentacije.

bodi:
nekaj posledic že poznamo:
uničena Indija in Pakistan, zmanjkalo je vode, pesticidov je potrebno več, v texasu je zrastel superplevel, katerega se ne znajo nikakor znebiti, letine se v nekaj letih občutno zmanjšajo, monsanto vsepovsod toži male kmete in jih s tem uničuje itd
Indija in pakistan sta uničena zaradi marsičesa, njuno medsebojno sovraštvo in bolno metanje denarja v oborožitev ima velik delež v tem uničevanju, da so pa GSO krivi za zgrešeno politiko voditeljev teh držav, tega me pa ne prepričaš.

bodi:
do česa lahko še pride, če se ta monstrum spusti z verige?

In zakaj bi bil GSO monstrum? Ves čas poslušamo, kakšna apokalipsa bo, če ne zatremo GSOjev v kali. Povej mi REALNE možnosti, kaj gre lahko tako narobe. REALNE, ne “kaj pa če” fantaziranja.

bodi:
ali jim boš zaupal, da ni v koruzni moki gena, ki poskrbi za to, da ženske niso več plodne?
danes. in jutri?

Budalast argument, ne morem ga drugače označit. Zakaj bi katerakoli firma hotela zmanjševat populacijo in si s tem zmanjševat potencialen trg? Stargate ni dokumentarna oddaja, veš.

bodi:
in če gre za preživetje človeške vrste oziroma celo za obstoj plantarnega biološkega ravnovesja, potem ne bi tako zlahka zamahnil z roko, da je tvoje posedanje pred tipkovnico vredno tega tveganja.

Biološka raznovrstnost se kvečjemu poveča, če naredimo še sorto, dve več. Apokalipse zaradi GSOjev pač ne bo.

bodi:
tvoje vprašanje jasno kaže, da nikoli nisi niti pokusil kmečkih del.

Košnja, obračanje in spravljanje sena mi niso tuji, tudi drvarjenja se ne ustrašim. Vse na roko, premalo zemlje, da bi bilo smiselno kupovat stroje - tudi cepljenje polen. Tako da si močno zgrešil.

bodi:
vpeti smo v družbo, a to ne pomeni, da bi morali zaradi tega zavreči vso etiko in moralo ter pozabiti na vse, kar nas dela plemenite.

Velike besede ne naredijo argumenta. In GSOji ne bodo uničili sveta, čeprav si nekateri, kot kaže, tega želite.

bodi:
nisi robot, jure, si dedič svojih prednikov - sprijazni se s tem in opazil boš, da je to neprecenljivo darilo, četudi se morda ne maraš in zato privoščljivo pošiljaš svet k vragu.

ne bodi sebičen in dopusti, da bodo tudi tisti, ki bodo prišli za nami, lahko živeli v tem raju, ki ga imenujemo zemlja

in ne v neki strupeni puščavi

Očitno nimaš pojma, kaj GSOji sploh so in se ne zavedaš potenciala, ki ga imajo. Srečo imamo, da tebi podobni niso bili zraven ob npr. odkritju, kako proizvajat elektriko in jo koristno porabit. Bi danes še vedno životarili v bajtah in delali tlako trenutnemu oblastniku.

Blaž Babič:
In še lep pozdrav vsem monstantovim plačancem, ki si trdo služijo svoj vsakdanji bio-eco-croissant.

Ko zmanjka argumentov, se začne z osebnimi napadi. Že večkrat videno, žal to ne naredi tvojega stališča nič bolj ne kredibilnega, ne trdnega, še manj razumskega.

sanja:
Koliko raziskav še? Najmanj toliko, da ne bo treba več ugotavljati: “še veliko negotovosti v zvezi z zdravstvenimi tveganji, ki jih prinašajo GSO pridelki.

Tudi za mobitel še ni definitivne raziskave, da ni škodljiv. Predvidevam, da mobitela ne poseduješ? In ne pozabi, brezžično računalniško omrežje deluje na enaki frekvenci. Prav tako bluetooth, pa še kaka stvar bi se našla. No, upam, da nimaš nobene od naštetih tehnologij. Sicer zaman, ampak upanje ostaja :). Intervju v Mladini sem dal zaradi človeka, ne zaradi časnika. Če pa ti predpostavljaš, da prispevek Dr. Bohanca o GSOjih da kakršnokoli vrednost vsem drugim člankom o GSOjih v Mladini, si pa malo naivno predstavljaš stvari. Ni pomembno, KJE, ampak KDO.

Sanja:
Kdo je preprečeval raziskave?

Še enkrat, NIHČE ti ne more preprečit, sploh v današnjem času, da sam izvedeš preiskave in objaviš rezultate na internetu. Če so narejene strokovno, natančno opisane, če ni v njih metodoloških napak in so ponovljive, jim ne bo nihče oporekal. Je pa res problem, če hočeš, da te financira država in to verjamem, da gre v nos marsikomu, ki si je obetal lepo plačo za malo luftanja.

Sanja:
Nihče nikomur res ne preprečuje, da bi kupil vrečo GSOjev in jih dal v analizo. Ja, to je pa res. Dajmo se to zmenit še za zdravila, si za?

No vidiš, NIHČE ti ne preprečuje. Če ti nihče noče plačat za to, je to nekaj povsem drugega.

Sanja:
Če se informiraš samo pri dr. Bohancu, ne boš izvedel, da gso rastline zemljo kontaminirajo za 15 let, kar pomeni, da drugačno kmetovanje na teh površinah ni mogoče. Prav tako kot ne njegovi študentje, ki si zavoljo lastnega napredovanja v višji letnik ne drznejo omenjati zadržkov do gso-jev, saj je profesor znan kot hud preganjalec tovrstnih zadržkarjev na fakulteti (če slučajno še ne veš).

Ja, Bohanc je grdigrdi Monsantov plačanec. Daj no, res verjameš takim natolcevanjem? In če vrže par študentkov, ki raje žurajo kot se kaj naučijo, mu je to štet samo v plus. Je pa res, da imajo taki študentki potem največ za povedat, kako je profesor fuuul grozen, čeprav so “vse” znali.
O zastrupljanju zemlje s strani GSOjev pa ne bom komentiral, ker ni vredno. Jaz tudi lahko rečem, da bio kmetijstvo spodbuja razmnoževanje škodljivcev in ker inherentno ne pridelaš enako hrane, kot z modernimi sredstvi, bi kmalu sledila lakota, saj bi še tisto malo, kar bi biokmetje pridelali, pospravili škodljivci, ki bi se zaradi pomanjkanja zatiranja namnožili čez vse meje.

Sanja:
Tisti, ki kupujemo ekološko pridelano hrano, vemo, da oznaka “bio” ni dovolj in bi jo prav lahko uporabili tudi gso promotorji, če mogoče ne bi bilo preveč perverzno.

Če ni skrivnost, koliko stane taka hrana? In kaj misliš, če bi naenkrat imeli na voljo samo ekološko hrano (ki je ne bi mogli pridelat v enakih količinah, kot lahko sedaj) - kaj bi to naredilo s ceno hrane?

Sanja:
Problem, da je zakonodaja bolj pisana na kožo korporacijam kot majhnim firmam, je starejši od slovenskega zakona o gso, zato je nenavadno, da ga dr. agronomije z vso svojo znanstveno avtoriteto predstavlja kot problem, kot bi nastal z nasprotniki gso-jem.

Ni nastal z nasprotniki GSOjev, je pa nastal, ko so začeli nasprotniki sodobnemu kmetijstvu (ki so nato šli še v nasprotovanje GSOjem) postavljat prehude omejitve za “splavitev” proizvoda. Očitno ti še vedno ni jasno, da če rabiš po razvoju in testiranju produkta še (recimo) milijon za državni “žegen”, si bo to lažje privoščila velika korporacija, mala firma bo pa ali propadla ali se priključila veliki firmi - ker sama ne bo imela sredstev, da bi karkoli spravila na trg in si tako omogočila obstoj.

Sanja:
Mislim, da argument tistih, ki ne želijo svojih otrok cepiti, ni, kot praviš “saj že dolgo ni nihče umrl, cepiva so pa tako strašno nevarna”. Za to bi morali biti precej debilni, se ti ne zdi? Pa so med njimi tudi zdravniki, ampak pustiva to temo za toliko časa, dokler o njej ne veva dovolj, da se izogneva nepotrebnim in nekorektnim posploševanjem.

Kaj pa naj bi bil argument? No, mogoče bi dal to v dva argumenta - “saj ni že dolgo noben umrl” in “cepiva so >>nevarna

@jure

to sicer ni debata o cepivih,
da pa boš sploh poznal osnove kritike obširnih obveznih cepljenj, si preberi o tej temi vsaj en kritičen tekst, na primer:
http://www.svarun.org/Chaitow-22strani.pdf
verjamem, da se ti ga ne ljubi brati; ponavadi smo v iskanje takih in podobnih virov ljudje prisiljeni šele, ko se soočimo s posledicami cepljenj naših otrok.
A v kolikor ne veš, za kaj gre, raje ne razpravljaj z ljudmi, ki imajo poleg teoretičnega znanja tudi lastne izkušnje.

morebiti pa te zanima raziskati, kolikšen kapital leži v različnih cepljenjih? potem si lahko prebereš neko starejšo zgodbo o nekem znanem politiku, ki je povsem naključno eden tistih, ki so ravnokar zaslužili ogromne vsote denarja s prodajo zdravila proti svinjski gripi, tamiflu, ki bi mu sicer v kratkem potekel rok uporabe. tudi v Sloveniji so bile zaloge razgrabljene v trenutku.
http://proliberty.com/observer/20031113.htm

o mobitelih tudi ne teče debata, a če želiš o tem kaj tehtnega pripomniti, si najprej raje preberi kaj o posledicah različnih sevanj. namig: poguglaj

“FREIBURŠKI APEL”

Ta dokument je sestavilo 60 zdravnikov in profesorjev, ki so ga tudi prvi podpisali. V samo treh mesecih se jim je pridružilo čez 500 zdravnikov in čez 35 000 somišljenikov iz vse Nemčije. Freiburški apel je hitro dobil mednarodne razsežnosti in bil preveden v 17 jezikov, številna pisma in faksi še nenehno prihajajo iz vsega sveta.

“Znanost je pokazala, da deluje mobilna telefonija v globino možganov in ne samo v okolici ušesa. Odkrili so, da samo 2 minutni pogovor deluje v globino možganov in pusti pri otrocih opazne posledice, ki trajajo do 1 ure!

Kdo more sedaj še trditi, da so mikrovalovi zdravju neškodljivi, kdo more še trditi, da ni za to dokazov.

Lobby mobilne telefonije se poslužuje neinformiranosti prebivalstva, da z zavajajočo reklamno politiko širi svojo mrežo na račun zdravja in prihodnosti prebivalstva..

V Nemčiji obstaja »Die Buergerwelle«, ki informira, zasleduje dogajanja in pomaga reševati probleme. Njena dejavnost se razteza tudi v druge države (Austrija, Belgija, Nizozemska, Luxemburg, Španija…..in zakaj ne Slovenija?).

Slovenija nujno potrebuje nepristranski informativni organ, ki bi vodil evidenco vseh primerov v zvezi z ELM sevanji. Šele ko bomo v lastni deželi izvedeli in doživljali da nam otroci zbolevajo za rakom in da za to obstajajo trdni vzroki prikriti z neresnico in zavajanjem, se bo…morda pričelo ozaveščanje in kot posledica iskanje rešitev…v kolikor ne bo že prepozno.”

- citirano iz strani gibanja za pravičnost in razvoj

no, če se končno lahko posvetimo še dedno popačenim rastlinam:

gensko popačene organizme je parlament eu urejal v več direktivah, ki se medsebojno dopolnjujejo.

Direktiva 2008/27/EC recimo, dopolnjuje in popravlja direktivo 2001/18/EC,

2. odstavek 21. člena (enega redkih z razumljivo vsebino, velika večina ostalih členov je zgolj tehnične narave, a la: glej te in te člene tiste direktive, ob upoštevanju tistega in onega člena direktive abc pa se je ravnati po tem, tistem in onem členu direktive xyz, razen, v primeru, da gre za situacijo, opisano v členih x, y, ter, z, direktive yyy, ko se držimo načel, opisanih v členih f, g, h, te in te direktive itd),

takole:

Article 21(2) shall be replaced by the following:
‘2.
For products where adventitious or technically
unavoidable traces of authorised GMOs cannot be
excluded, a minimum threshold may be established below
which these products shall not have to be labelled in
accordance with paragraph 1

zanimiv je tudi popravek 2. odstavka 26. člena:

Conditions for the implementation of paragraph 1
shall be established, without duplicating or creating incon-
sistencies with labelling provisions laid down in existing
Community legislation. Those measures, designed to
amend non-essential elements of this Directive by supple-
menting it, shall be adopted in accordance with the regu-
latory procedure with scrutiny referred to in Article 30(3).
In so doing, account should be taken, as appropriate, of
labelling provisions established by Member States in
accordance with Community legislation.

to nekako pomeni, da bo eu komisija sproti višala mejo dopuščenega deleža gso v pridelkih, ki bo odvisna od stanja v naravi. če se bo izkazalo, da niti najbolj ekološki pridelki ne bodo vsebovali manj kot xy % gso, bodo predpisi ustrezno popravljeni. države članice se bodo morale tem predpisom podrediti.

to spominja na zgodbo o atrazinu. pred leti smo imeli dopustno mejo deleža atrazina v pitni vodi občutno nižjo, kot je ta meja postavljena danes. atrazin je mimogrede povedano, hud strup. ker se je uporaba gs koruze, ki za pridelavo nujno potrebuje atrazin, povečala po vsej Sloveniji in je delež atrazina v pitni vodi počasi daleč presegel dovoljeno mejo, se je na naknadno občutno povišala tudi dopustna meja, saj bi sicer morali zapreti večino vodovodov kot zastrupljene.

to ne pomeni, da imamo danes čisto vodo, nasprotno, pomeni, da uradne ustanove načelo varovanja zdravja prilagajajo interesom velikega kapitala, z izgovorm “ohranjanja mirnega prebivalstva in v izogib paniki” pa nas lažno pomirjajo, češ, “saj dopustna meja atrazina v pitni vodi skoraj nikjer ni resno presežena”, ne da bi omenili, da to dopustno mejo sproti prilagajajo - višajo.

če pogledamo še razpravo o predlogu zakona parlamentarnega Odbora za kmetijstvo, gozdarstvo in prehranov ponedeljek, 18.5. 2009, ( Inštitut za trajnostni razvoj, Ljubljana, 19.5.09 Zakon o gojenju GS rastlin ), spoznamo odnos slovenske politike do vprašanj o gso:

v Sloveniji obstaja glede gso pravna praznina, ki pa z zakonom ne bo rešena, saj so potrebni podzakonski akti, ki bodo “v resnici šele reševali” pravno praznino.

V Sloveniji se danes goji le ena vrsta gso, ki pa je zelo strupena in bi jo morali že davno ukiniti (koruza, ki potrebuje škropivo Atrazin, ki zavira rast možganov otrok in feminizira živa bitja). A zakon o načelnem sprejemanju gso od nas zahteva EU. O prepovedi te strupene koruze se bo pogajalo kasneje.

Slovenija mora danes poslušati direktive EU, čeprav so te za državo potencialno škodljive, a naši “zakonodajalci” se nadejajo, da bomo nekoč v prihodnosti uspeli prepričati EU, da nam glede urejanja zakonodaje o gso pusti vsaj v nekaterih detajlih malo bolj proste roke.

Dovoljena meja za kontaminacijo ekoloških pridelkov z gso se bo zaenkrat gibala nekje med 1 promilom in 1 procentom.

“Varnostna” razdalja med nasadi gso in ekološkimi nasadi bo sicer premajhna, a o tem se bo še pogajalo.

Zakonodajalci se bodo pogajali tudi okoli višine odškodnine za “ekološke” kmetovalce, ki jim bodo gso nasadi kontaminirali pridelke.

Uživalci hrane niti slučajno ne moremo računati na kakršno koli odškodnino.

Naprotno Einsteinovemu prepričanju, da bi se brez čebel porušilo občutljivo ravnovesje zemeljskega življenja, čemur bi v najkrajšem času sledila katastrofa, Slovenija svojih čebel ne more zaščititi pred gso, kljub temu, da to za čebele skoraj zanesljivo pomeni uničenje.

Jure
Izgleda pač, da sodiš med tiste ljudi, ki niso preveč zaskrbljeni za zdravje prihodnjih rodov. Hkrati si goreč privrženec tehnologije in če ti tehnologija omogoča, da svoji mašinci lahko naročiš, naj ti ob 7:50 skuha kavo, zraven naj ti iz pekača skočijo hrustljavo zapečeni toastki medtem ko prihajaš iz kopalnice sveže obrit z brivnikom deluxwhatever in ti računalnik pove, da imaš že suhe gate, potem boš brezpogojno privržen vsemu drugemu, kar tehnologija zmore. Takšni pač niso vsi ljudje in še sreča, da je tako.

Če si previden, ne pomeni, da si nasprotnik vsemu, kar diši na tehnologijo. Človeštvo je med tem ugotovilo, da so neželeni učinki tehnološkega razvoja v najširšem smislu zelo nespodbudni, in to kar za planet v celoti.

Na tem forumu v bistvu zagovarjaš možnost raziskav potencialov GSO - dvomim, da kdo temu oporeka - in to delaš na način, da se zavzemaš za svobodno gojenje GSO rastlin, ne da bi se raziskali vplivi na zdravje in okolje in to med drugim argumentiraš tako, da naj pač vsak nese na analize, kar hoče. No, meni se zdi ta tvoj argument oz. ponudba dovolj nora, da ne rečem neresna za debato. Kaj misliš, kaj bi bilo, če bi enak princip veljal za zdravila?? Gluh si za podatke, da je uporaba pesticidov v GSO strahotno porasla, namesto, da bi se zmanjšala… kaj na ti potem človek še reče?

pa kje ti živiš??? Kaj so neželeni učinki tehnologizacije??? Poskusi polucijo, poskusi bolezni sodobnega časa.. eh eh..

prosti čas: btw, velika večina prostega časa v zahodnem svetu je porabljena za aktivnosti, ki zmanjšujejo zdravje ljudi. Ljudje, ki si pridelujejo hrano, niso brez prostega časa. Očitno je, da še nisi bil blizu pridelovalcev lastne hrane.

sankcije za pridelovalce GSO: in kaj bi po tvoje počel nadzornik, ki bi odkril kršenje pravil? Prijazno bi prigovarjal in vzgajal in prosil? nadzor brez možnosti sankcij je farsa..

plačilo analiz: kar tumbaš eno in isto. Ja itak, da lahko vsak nese kar hoče na analize. Vendar, če vsak mesec pol svoje plače dajem v državno blagajno, potem prav gotovo pričakujem od te svoje države, da bo naredila in plačala prav vse analize, ki so potrebne za varno uživanje zdraviln in hrane. Kapiš?

povečanje pesticidov: en klik stran.

čao!

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